November 22, 2023
Cindy Lopez:
Welcome. My name is Cindy Lopez, the host of this CHC podcast, Voices of Compassion. We hope you find a little courage, feel connected and experience compassion every time you listen.
Cindy Lopez:
Along with its challenges, ADHD also brings unique strengths and those strengths are often overshadowed by challenges. So in today’s episode, we want to shed light on the strengths. We explore these strengths and how understanding the strengths can transform the way we think about ADHD and how we can support our students with ADHD. We talk with CHC psychologists, Dr. Marjan Ebadi and Dr. Dylan Stewart, who share their knowledge and expertise with us. Educators, parents and anyone interested in empowering students with ADHD will find valuable insights and strategies for maximizing the potential of these amazing youth. Marjan and Dylan, thank you so much for joining us today. Love it if you could tell us a little bit about yourselves and why you think this is an important topic.
Marjan Ebadi, PhD:
So I’m Marjan. I have been doing mostly children therapy and assessment and working with a lot of kids who have either ADHD and anxiety and depression. As we keep learning more about ADHD and how people learn and how they function I think it’s very important to understand what is ADHD and kind of shift from looking at it as if it’s just a disorder and more like a lifestyle and notice all the diversity of how we learn and do things. So I think it’s very important for people to notice more of that.
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
I’m Dylan. And as a clinical psychologist I specialize in doing a lot of testing for individuals with learning differences or neurodevelopmental disorders. And so, you know, usually when a diagnosis or a disorder is identified in some way, the kind of natural first response is to think of all the clinical symptoms, all the limitations that are going to come along with that. And, ADHD has this very unique presentation where there actually are a number of strengths that go along with that. So I think it’s just a great opportunity to make sure to emphasize those strengths as much as we are some of the challenges that individuals with ADHD are encountering too.
Cindy Lopez:
So Dr. Stewart and Dr. Ebadi, you know, as I look at the data, there’s almost 130 million children and teens diagnosed with ADHD around the world. So it’s clearly a common condition. It’s often diagnosed in kids, but because of those numbers, I think it really is important for everyone to understand what it is and what it’s not. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
We certainly know that it’s a neurodevelopmental disorder. This is something that occurs at birth. It is really about how the brain is wired and how attention as sort of an ability and how the brain is connecting and working together, how certain processes within the brain are more challenging for certain individuals with a diagnosis of ADHD. As you mentioned as well, Cindy, you know, it certainly is something we notice in children much more frequently and usually the reason it is diagnosed in children is because there tend to be a lot more of these kinds of behavioral symptoms that go alongside it.
So it is when there’s a lot more of the acting out in class, it may be a little bit harder to manage some of the emotional needs at home, those tend to be some of the initial referral questions that we have, and there’s so much research coming out now that’s also helping us understand some of the genetic basis of this. I think some of the most recent data I was looking at, you know, if a parent has a diagnosis of ADHD, it’s greater than 50 percent likelihood that one their children may have that as well. So, you know, this is something that is really about the way our brains are wired that helps us to understand where some of these needs are coming from.
Cindy Lopez:
Yeah. It’s about the brain, right? So you might see it kind of behaviorally, but it’s the brain telling the body to do things in a certain way or not. So, Dr. Ebadi, what is it not?
Marjan Ebadi, PhD:
It’s not a behavioral disorder, right. And as you also mentioned, it’s kind of like a mismatch between what your brain’s telling you to do and what the setting is telling you to do. So I think a lot of behavioral things that tend to happen is just that mismatch with the setting. It’s not a mental illness or any kind of disease or disorder. It’s definitely not a specific learning disability. Although they could have some learning problems, but it’s not because they can’t learn. It’s not because you were a bad parent or you didn’t teach your kids correctly, and it’s not just a phase or like attention seeking behavior in classes. It’s not laziness. I think we should also shift from calling it a deficit or like a problem because it is how your brain’s wired, right or how you learn and interact with the world rather than like, “oh, there’s something wrong with you.”
Cindy Lopez:
It’s interesting cause as I’ve been doing my research about it too, I was reading about it being actually an abundance of attention and the challenges controlling that. So I think some people think about ADHD as a problem paying attention. It’s really, there’s a lot of things to pay attention to.
So how do I do that?
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
Yeah. I like to think of it almost like having access to the steering wheel of your car, right? And, you know, at some points you can have both hands on the wheel and be very focused and steer your car exactly where you want it to go. And sometimes it’s one of these self driving cars that’s kind of zipping all around and it has its own idea of where it wants to, you know, put its attention. So, it certainly is not that they have a lack of ability to have attention. It’s just how much you control or exertion, you can sort of move towards your attention at any one point in time.
Cindy Lopez:
So I think we all know, and you’ve mentioned it, we all know something about the challenges associated with ADHD. And so today we kind of want to flip that conversation and focus on some of the strengths associated with ADHD. So what do you think about that? What comments do you have on the strengths?
Marjan Ebadi, PhD:
Because they tend to focus on a lot of different things all at once they tend to be like original thinkers. They’re very curious and creative because they tend to like shift and focus on different stuff. They tend to like be a divergent thinker and think outside the box. They’re very inventive and open minded. Again, because your brain likes switching back and forth. You can be very flexible in how you think and you connect to other people. And like Dylan described with the whole hands on the wheel, like being hyper-focused can definitely benefit. So learning things that helps you or like, you know, your brain’s on power mode and you can focus for two hours on something without getting disconnected. I think all of those can help.
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
Yeah, I mean, you’re right on track there, Marjan. I mean, I’d say, individuals with ADHD have these kind of incredible abilities to almost have multiple thoughts or multiple ideas that are sort of popping around in their mind at any one point in time, and they can really you know multitask or sort of get a little bit of one project done and then switch over to project B. And, you know, somehow at the end of that hour long session of working, they have two projects that have been completed. They can really multitask sometimes very well. Also, if you can get really that right level of sensory input, they can really, you know, kind of find that right balance. They can be the people that work with the TV on in the background and the music and, you know, someone grinding coffee beans in the kitchen and they actually are able to harness their focus enough and have, you know, sort of their attention be something that they can be in control of at you know, a very fine level at that point in time.
Cindy Lopez:
So Dylan, you just mentioned the sensory input and how people with ADHD can kind of tune some of that out. We also see kids a lot with ADHD with fidgets and / or chewing gum or something like that, some people see those as toys, but can you comment on how they are helpful?
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
Absolutely. When we’re thinking of something like ADHD and, you know, sort of the ability to kind of regulate that attention, find the space where you can access that at the level that’s going to be most helpful for you. It’s often, you know, very closely related to sort of finding that right sensory balance of information. So how loud are the sounds in your environment? How much physical sensations do you have coming through your hands? How many people are in the environment around you? And so when we think about something like a fidget toy, you know, a spinner or something that someone is stretching or, you know, chewing gum as they’re doing an activity at their desk, you know, in the classroom, really for them, it is a strategy that they’re using to kind of regulate the sensory information that’s coming into their body at that point in time. And so when they have that tool and they have access to that, that’s actually helping to kind of calm down their overall system. It’s bringing the right amount of information into their body and their brain so that they can then actually have more attention and focus that they can access at that point in time.
Cindy Lopez:
That’s interesting because I think people have a wide variety of reactions when they see kids with fidgets.
Marjan Ebadi, PhD:
Fidgets are important, but it also is important to know what works for each child cause I think like what tends to happen is people like, “oh, fidget spinner worked for this kid and it should work for the other one.” I think teachers and parents just being good detectives and even for teens and kids to figure out what their brain actually needs, right? So maybe standing up getting water and sitting down will actually do you a lot of benefit or spinning things or for girls playing with hair ties, like all of that is good fidgets to use.
So I think just keeping in mind that every kid might need different things in classroom and if you had like one student that uses this fidget that might not necessarily work for another kid and it might look like a toy for the other kid. So, just having an open mind about it.
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
And I had one other strength, connects here to this sort of sensory conversation that we’re having, but individuals with ADHD tend to have this incredible strength as well related to finding things that they’re very interested in or things that are very stimulating to them, and they can do them at a very high level. And it may not be a skill that they can apply to all situations, you know, maybe sitting down to write that five paragraph essay for your English class is a more challenging type of task, but when you sit down in your math class, you are so interested in that amount of information it’s really stimulating your brain in a way that kind of giving your attention and focus to that type of activity, you know, something you’re much more motivated and willing to engage with. And so, part of the support for individuals with ADHD is really finding where those activities are that are most stimulating and being able to kind of harness those strengths and know that it works really easily in the math class. And how do we use some of those same skills in the English class to be able to you know still turn in that assignment and, you know, make sure that you’re not having to work so so hard at something that’s not naturally as motivating to your brain.
Mike: CHC’s Voices of Compassion podcast is made possible by the generosity of people like you. To learn more about supporting CHC, go to chconline.org/donate. Also make sure to follow us on social media for more inspiring and educational content from CHC.
Cindy Lopez:
So you mentioned this, doctor Ebadi, the key is knowing kind of your challenges and strengths. So knowing what works for you, knowing what doesn’t, so imagining some of our listeners are parents, teachers, other caregivers, how can they help children understand and cultivate their strengths?
Marjan Ebadi, PhD:
I think it depends on obviously the age and how old the kid is while they’re figuring this out, but I think as parents just being also kind to yourself and your child too, that it might be trial and error while you figure out what works because as kids are growing things might have worked when they were seven and it’s nolonger working. So I think just having an open mind and keep tryingdifferent things that could work. As parents, like being observers, like, oh, like when we did this set of things for this homework or for this math work, or even like doing chores in the house, like these helped them focus better or they complete it better or this is their strength. So I think like, again, kind of shifting from looking at what they can’t do and hyper focusing on the things they can do well and how to channel that throughout their day-to-day, I think will do a lot of benefit. And again, like as parents, it’s important to be kind to yourself too, that you probably make mistakes and think this might work for your child and it doesn’t, but just be good detectives and take notes.
Also working with a therapist or looking online, working and collaborating with teachers and other therapists, if you have one, what works for them.
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
Definitely, you know, kind of like being creative in your approach to some of the requirements that a child with ADHD might still be required to do, you know, turning in your homework, sitting in class, participating with a group of children, you know, these are all things that as Dr. Ebadi was mentioning really thinking creatively, being kind to yourself, if they don’t work and knowing that there are some experiments you’re going to need to do, and on the practical side of things, I would really certainly recommend trying to break things down into tasks that feel as manageable as possible. You know instead of writing that five paragraph essay, maybe the approach is we’re going to write just the thesis sentence. We’re going to come up with that idea. We’re going to give some space to be able to kind of marinate on that idea and then come back to it at a time when you feel like you can then write the rest of that whole paragraph. If you have some momentum and some energy going around this, and that idea seems to be working for you, then you do a second paragraph or really, you know, trying to break things down into chunks that feel like they’re going to be manageable and to try not to really burn out the candle of attention and focus for that individual because it can be very easy to just try and work so so hard and get all of those things done. And then there’s no energy left over for things like editing your essay or being able to work on, you know, the next homework assignment that you might have to do.
Cindy Lopez:
Yeah. What you’re talking about Dr. Stewart, those kind of executive functioning challenges. So, this is not an episode about executive functioning. We actually did one recently, so please check out other podcast episodes if you’re interested in finding out more about executive functioning, but we often see students with ADHD who also have executive functioning challenges. And so again, it’s partly how their brain is wired. The executive functioning part up in the front is not quite as developed. So kind of scaffolding that process for them, a lot of what you just said, Dylan reminds me of that and being aware of how they can use kind of their hyper focus as a strength.
Sometimes it’s difficult, I think for teachers to have those kids with ADHD in their classrooms because there’s often a lot of energy around that, and they can be disruptive in the classroom with some behavioral challenges. So again, we’re trying to kind of flip that script today and talk about strengths. So what advice do you have for educators about supporting students with ADHD in a way that leverages their strengths?
Marjan Ebadi, PhD:
I think that kind of looking at not every kid will have the same symptoms. And I think also when you have, like you mentioned Cindy, one of those super energetic ones in your classroom it is very common to kind of want to look for things they’re doing wrong. So I think also just shifting for yourself and helping the child themselves to also notice the things they’re doing right. So, focusing on three things that you can praise them on, right, if you notice they focus on something or they’re being helpful to someone. So I think definitely shifting your focus and you know, the student focus on the things that are going well or they’re doing correctly cause once we hyper focus on things that are going wrong, it’s really hard to shift from it sometimes. And then also,again, like it would probably be very hard for a teacher with multiple kids in a room, but definitely talking to the parents and understanding your kids strength could also help. You notice it more so then you can kind of help them manifest it in their project and adjust it and adapt it to how their strengths and areas of growth are.
Cindy Lopez:
You said, you know, finding things that you can focus on that you can praise the student for. And I think having been a teacher, having been in the classroom, like once I start focusing on that and I started looking for those things, it really changes my own mindset as a teacher.
And I think a lot of these students most often have heard how badly they’re doing classes or like if they’re not following direction. So I think also naming things they’re good at helps them shift it internally too and notice it more and work more on their strength than what I can’t do.
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
Absolutely.
Cindy Lopez:
…which can increase their own anxiety.
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
Yeah, I would say a lot of this likely comes back to sort of the relationship you have with that student. And if it is something where you are trying to help support them to learn some specific content or, you know, be most successful in the social setting that is happening in your classroom, if you have a relationship with that student in some capacity outside of just the teacher student relationship, like you get to know something about them, you have an opportunity to sit down and have lunch with them at the beginning of the school year to get to understand the things that they’re most interested in, where their strengths are, that can really be an incredible support for that student and that teacher when they’re trying to navigate a more challenging moment where they know that this isn’t only negative feedback that I’m getting from my teacher all the time. I know that they really care about me and want to know about me and help me in this moment too.
Cindy Lopez:
Yeah. Also, I’m reminded of universal design for learning as an educator, but simply allowing students to leverage their strengths as they’re working on projects that the outcomes of products don’t all have to look the same. It doesn’t have to be a five paragraph composition or whatever. Instead of a paper maybe they could create a photo essay or they could interview someone and create a video or they could build a replica or something, like I think as a parent or a teacher anytime you can really identify those strengths and use those strengths to help your students with learning in this particular case, the outcomes of learning and how flexible you can be with that I think you’ll be amazed at some of the things that you see from your students.
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
Absolutely.
Marjan Ebadi, PhD:
I was just going to say, like you said, I think just shifting to look at everyone individually as unique people, and I think if we moved from everyone’s supposed to look a certain way, and then what makes everyone colorful and cool in their own way that the whole system would be a little bit better.
Cindy Lopez:
I’m also reminded of another podcast episode: Embracing My ADHD. So that’s with a millennial with ADHD who is diagnosed as a child and as an adult is finding out all kinds of strengths and this idea about it’s okay to be different as a matter of fact, as an adult, you kind of want to find ways to be different and stand out. So I think that our kids and our students can really benefit too from that longer term view of ADHD that, yeah, you know, school might be kind of difficult. There might be aspects of it that are harder for kids with ADHD, but in the long term view there’s a bunch of things that you’re going to be able to do and that you’ll be happy with and that will really leverage your strengths. In our resource library, our online resource library at CHC we have an ADHD guide that talks about ADHD over the lifespan and what that kind of looks like. So if you’re a listener that might be another good resource for you to look up and take a look at. Marjan and Dylan, as we wrap this up, just wondering if you have any final thoughts that you’d like to leave with our listeners.
Marjan Ebadi, PhD:
I think like you said, Cindy, once we stop pulling brakes about how to fit in to like, “oh, I can’t do this or I can’t do that” and then shifting to noticing things you can do, it’s like having turbo speed. It’s how you think and how you operate, how you learn, and just trying to understand how the brain works is the most important thing for someone with ADHD. Once you figure out how your brain is working life just becomes a lot easier for a lot of these individuals.
Dylan Stewart, PsyD:
And I would add to that, you know, as we’re thinking even about this as like a neurodevelopmental disorder, you know, the way I kind of envision ADHD is it’s a way that a certain type of brain has developed and the way that that brain interacts with the world around it. And that is something that we’ve been speaking about is going to change and evolve and develop over time. And so what it looks like at seven might be very, very different by the time that individual is 10, you know, this might look very different by the time that person is heading off to college or finding their first job, there are skills that are going to develop over time. And, I think the earlier you can understand that level of neurodiversity related to ADHD the more helpful that can be because then you have a longer runway than to be able to start to know how to provide some of the supports and, you know, tap into those strengths as much as possible over the course of your development.
Cindy Lopez:
Thank you so much, Dr. Stewart and Dr. Ebadi for being with us today. Really appreciate your thoughts about this. To our listeners as I said, we mentioned some resources. You can find that ADHD guide I mentioned in our Resource Library online, that’s chconline.org/resourcelibrary.
We also do evaluations and therapy for students with ADHD, serving children, teens, and young adults. So you can find out more about that by contacting our care team via email careteam@chconline.org or phoning us at 650-688-3625. So thank you again, and to our listeners thank you for joining us as well.
Visit us online at podcasts.chconline.org. Make sure to subscribe to Voices of Compassion so you never miss an episode, and we’d love it if you’d leave us a rating and review. Have a question? Send us an email or a voice memo at podcasts@chconline.org. We’re here for you when you need us.
