March 18, 2025
Cindy Lopez: Welcome. My name is Cindy Lopez, the host of this CHC podcast, Voices of Compassion. We hope you find a little courage, feel connected and experience compassion every time you listen.
Young adulthood is a time of transformation, independence, and discovery, but it also comes with unique challenges. Join us as we talk with CHC experts, Dr. Erin Hoolihan and Dr. Zahra Murtaza, about the stressors young adults face, from navigating individuation and identity development, to balancing budgets, academics, relationships, and the complexities of adulting. We’ll explore how societal issues also add to the weight of this pivotal stage of life. Tune in for practical strategies to help young adults build resilience, embrace change, and thrive during this critical time.
So welcome Dr. Murtaza and Dr. Hoolihan. We’d love it if you could just take a minute to tell our listeners a little bit more about yourselves and maybe why this topic is an important one to discuss.
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: Thanks so much for having us, Cindy, Dr. Murtaza and I are both psychologists here at Children’s Health Council, and we both specialize in working with teens and young adults. So, we’re super excited to be here talking about this very important topic.
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Thanks for having us here, Cindy. As Dr. Hoolihan mentioned, we both work closely with young people of various ages and diverse backgrounds. And personally, supporting young adults in this transitional period is one of the most meaningful aspects of my work.
Cindy Lopez: I know a lot of our listeners, a lot of parents we talk with are at that point where they’re looking at their young adults, whether it’s high schoolers who are 17, 18, 19, right, transitioning to college or transitioning after high school or college students who are trying to navigate a new way of living, like I have to do my laundry, pay my bills, all of those kinds of things. So before we jump into the topic though, let’s make sure that we just let our listeners know for this particular podcast episode, what are we saying when we say young adults? What’s the age group we’re referring to?
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Yeah, that’s a great question, Cindy. This is a topic of contention in terms of what is defined as young adulthood. I would say broadly it’s seen as a time of transition, and it’s an in-between phase. While a young adult isn’t still fully dependent on their parents or guardians anymore, they’re still not fully independent. They’re still gaining skills and reaching milestones. The UN defines the youth as 15 to 24, which is pretty broad. However, the Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine defines young adulthood as 18 to 25. So, as we can see, there are some different ways of approaching this. In the U.S., it’s interesting that we have a cutoff at age 26 for individuals to go off of their parents’ health insurance. So that’s one cutoff in our country. In terms of this episode or, you know, podcast, we’re going to be referring to young adulthood as 18 to 26. And that is the age range that CHC also refers to for transitional age youth.
Cindy Lopez: As we think about this age group and these young adults, there are some specific stressors that they are coping with and dealing with. Before we get into what those are exactly, let’s define stress and what is stress in young adults?
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: A super important question as we get going into this podcast. So generally, stress occurs when we’re in challenging situations and the demands of the situation exceeds the resources that we have. So this could be time, energy, our emotional battery, money – any type of resource. And importantly, stress is generally a response to some sort of external cause. And often goes away once a situation’s resolved itself.
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: And to kind of go off of what you were saying, Dr. Hoolihan, stress is something that can affect any human being, no matter what age they are. As humans, we’re biologically wired to experience stress in situations where we face pressure, or there’s some sort of threat. And also, it’s important to note different cultures have different views of how they conceptualize stress. However, I think most folks can agree that they do not like stress, and it’s just not a pleasant emotion or let’s say physiological state. And we can feel stress in our body because when we’re stressed, our body releases a hormone called cortisol into our bloodstream. This prepares our body to fight or flight or engage in fight or flight basically to take some action. What we know is too much stress or an excess for long periods of time can lead to physical health conditions or make us more vulnerable to mental health conditions. So physical health conditions could be high blood pressure, heart disease, sleep problems, but we also know that too much stress over a long period of time can make us more prone to developing anxiety disorders or depression. One thing I’ll also clarify is, not all stress is necessarily a bad thing, quote. So, too much stress can have negative consequences for us. However, it’s also important to know that some level of stress can help us feel productive and get things done. So, when we talk about young adults, there are a lot of factors going on in their lives that are going to bring about stress. And it’s important to note, okay, how can I acknowledge that I am stressed, but use that stress to motivate me and to help me get things done, but not be consumed by it.
Cindy Lopez: As you noted, we tend to think of stress in more negative terms, right? And it’s likely because most of us are on stress overload, right? There’s so much that we have taken on or some things that we probably, I speak for myself have become bigger than it needs to be. I appreciate your point Dr. Murtaza that not all stress is bad. Sometimes stress motivates us to take action that we need to take. Today, we’ll be talking about stress in terms of how young adults can really respond to the stress, as you already noted, Dr. Murtaza. So, let’s talk about the stress that young adults are experiencing. It seems like it’s in some cases, pretty significant. So why is that? What’s happening at that age range?
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: I think it’s really important to acknowledge that this is a time of significant change and transition. And there are many stressors that are specific to this phase of life that often a person hasn’t confronted or dealt with prior to being a young adult. One concept we talk about often at this time is this idea of individuation. Basically, this means that the young adults are learning how they are separate from those around them. We often think about this in relationship to parents or caregivers, but it’s really any group that has had a significant impact on the young adult. So they’re really asking themselves, like, who am I separate from all these forces that have shaped me up until this point in my life? And, as you pointed out before, Cindy, they’re trying to answer this question while also learning to balance a budget, live on their own, maybe attend college courses, maybe maintain a full time job for the first time, invest in relationships. And while this time of independence can be really exciting, it can also bring on other emotions as well, such as guilt, or anxiety, or grief, or homesickness, or even some fear. And while all this is normal, at the same time, it can cause a significant amount of stress.
Cindy Lopez: So thank you, Dr. Hoolihan for sharing that insight, that individuation piece is really important. And as you noted, trying to do that while they’re trying to accomplish these other things that they haven’t necessarily been completely responsible for previous to this time in their lives. As we think about this age group, there’s a lot going on, this individuation and more probably. So, Dr. Martaza, did you have some comments to add there?
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Definitely. I think Dr. Hoolihan, you described it well. Individuation takes up a lot of mental energy for this age group. And then you add on all of the other milestones that they’re trying to achieve. Just taking a step back. I know that American Psychological Association, APA, conducted a 2023 report called, Stress in America. And what was interesting with younger millennials and Gen Z, so folks who are in their twenties and thirties right now, they reported significantly high levels of financial stress and loneliness. And then I think about how something like the pandemic could influence different generations in a different way, and a lot of folks, for example, right now who are young adults attended a portion of high school during the pandemic, and they may not have had the same opportunities to develop social connections, for example, as other people and other generations. Now, the world is asking them to dive in to start networking for jobs or take charge of their social lives or make big decisions about things like education or healthcare. So I just imagine that’s gotta be really difficult for someone who grew up with the pandemic going on.
And I also think about health care. That’s something that I wanted to mention that relates to individuation. This is a time in their life where young adults are now needing to make their own decisions regarding their health care. Once you turn 18, you need to sign on your own registration paperwork or intake paperwork, and you have the decision to involve or not involve your parents. So I just think it’s a time where the stakes are higher to make these decisions, which I believe can be exciting, but I think can also be stressful to have that much freedom and independence. I think even as someone who maybe isn’t in that age group anymore, I still find it difficult at times to navigate things like insurance plans or figuring out health providers. So then imagining when you’re very new to all of that, it must be very difficult.
Cindy Lopez: As you’re both talking, I’m thinking about our listeners who are probably a lot of parents out there and parents of young adults, and they’re trying to figure out when to step in and when to step out basically, right? Oh, I know my daughter is homesick. She’s away for an extended period of time for the first time, living in a different place, but she’s feeling homesick. Should I be calling her every day? Should I not call her every day? How do I, as a parent, relate to my young adult now? It’s different, and I think for both parents, caregivers, that role and the young adults themselves, navigating this new relationship can be a little tricky and there’s lots of questions like, “Am I doing this right?,” especially for parents I think. And I know we plan to talk a little bit about the strategies, but I wonder if either one of you have any comments on that. Are there questions they should be asking themselves too as they think about the best way to interact with their young adult children?
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Cindy, that is such an excellent question because it relates to the young person being their own autonomous agent and making decisions, but also relates to the parent or caregiver, giving their young adult space to develop their own sense of who they are. You know, one of the things also related to health and routine is that some of this is still developing for the young person, so I would really encourage parents or caregivers to leave the ball in the young adult’s court and to see how they’re developing their own routine and let’s say, health goals, their habits, and if the young adult indicates that they want more support around that, I think that’s a great place for parents to jump in. So I think about, for example, a young adult deciding, “Hey, I’m gonna go make my own therapist appointment or doctor’s appointment. I would recommend that a parent affirm the young adult’s choices and say something like, “Hey, that’s great that you’re taking some lead on that. Let me know how I can support you.” And again, taking their lead and affirming their choices. Yeah. I wonder if you have other thoughts on that, Dr. Hoolihan?
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: Yeah, I think that all is fantastic, Dr. Murtaza. And I think to connect what you just said back to where we started this discussion around individuation, right, like this is what we want young adults to be doing at this point in their lives. We want them to be independently making decisions and sort of creating their own path in this world. And as parents and caregivers, that can totally be really challenging to take a step back. As Cindy said, that’s not how the relationship has been up until this point. So I really love what you’re talking about, Dr. Murtaza, about kind of letting them take the lead and asking, like, those really thoughtful questions, like open ended questions, how can I support you? How are you feeling trying to navigate the healthcare system or the mental health system or talking to the bursar’s office at your university, right, whatever it may be. And I think really leading with those open-ended questions about how they’re experiencing it and how you can offer support. And then respecting what is said by the young adult. It can be hard as parents to sort of say like, I know my kid should be doing this, or it would be really helpful if they did that, right? And there is that element of trial and error that’s really effective for learning at this phase of life. So we want to sort of ask the questions and respect what help they are either asking for or not asking for in a given situation.
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Cindy Lopez: So as we think about this period of time in the young adult life, in the lifespan, in this young adult phase, we’ve talked about individuation. We’ve talked about this, I’m going to call it adulting, right, career, finances, academics, relationships, all that. Dr. Murtaza, you mentioned, health and healthcare and taking care of yourself and do you have the self-awareness to know when, okay, this cold has gone on too long. I should probably go see somebody about it. Maybe I need medicine. So there’s some self-awareness, there’s some advocating for yourself. There’s also self-care. We’ve touched on that a little bit, but I think about college experience, and I know that college path isn’t everyone’s path, but as I think about college, there’s a lot of pulling all nighters, right, and studying. There’s lack of sleep and drinking a lot of coffee and those red bulls and all of that so you could stay awake. So there are all kinds of decisions that young adults are making and have to make, and they learn from those and for parents and caregivers, you might be watching some of that from a different place now. You’re kind of on the outside looking in and saying, “Oh my gosh, you know, they’re going to crash and burn,” but at some point, parents and caregivers need to kind of let that happen, right? And let their child respond and figure out how to get back to kind of level ground again, a place where they can feel like they’re accomplishing what they set out to accomplish.
There’s also, the idea of everything that’s going on in our world, economically, socially, even politically, right, that also adds stress.
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Absolutely. Cindy, there’s just so much underlying this topic of stressors in this age. Quickly to go back to the question of self-care, I think that’s an ongoing routine that someone needs to develop, and it’s never going to be, quote, “perfect.” Even as adults or even older adults I know are developing their own routines around this. So I would say for a young adult or their parent, it’s important to be kind to oneself regarding the ways that they’re going to take care of themselves, the ways that they’ll keep a growth-oriented mindset. And, one reason it’s so important to take care of ourselves with our health, with our habits, is that young adulthood is a time we really do start to see the rise in physical and mental health challenges.
For instance, the World Health Organization has described that for the onset of mental illness, about one half of mental health conditions start by the mid-teen years, and about three fourths of mental illnesses develop by the mid-twenties. So this just tells us it’s important to keep an eye on our mental health, and of course our physical health as well. As we’re growing, and we’re developing at this point, we know a lot of our physical development has happened, brain development is still happening until about 25. But it’s just important to know that there’s more that we can learn about ourselves and do to take care of ourselves. But I do want to address this other point you’re mentioning related to our environment because as we know, the environment plays a huge role in stress for each of us. I want to also acknowledge the word salience. There are different things that are salient to different people. So for instance, for someone, their social community could be a really salient aspect of their identity, and so stress in that aspect could impact them. For example, if they’re a racial or ethnic minority, discrimination or feeling marginalized could impact them. Political and environmental disasters can impact so many people, as those aspects influence so many of us in these systems. And currently, as we know, the world is literally on fire. I mean, we’re seeing the fires in L.A., different wars happening across the world. And young people, I think at this time in our world, are so much more conscious and aware of social issues. They’re so connected on their smartphones and social media, and it is just a really heavy phenomenon to hold all of these disasters and suffering going on. And then to be asked, hey, keep trying hard to build your life. It’s really hard to do that when the world around you feels so bleak. So I often tell the young adults I work with, you’re not to blame for all of the stress you’re carrying. In fact, these are systems-level issues. When the systems are failing or they’re really struggling, you need to tell yourself like you’re doing the best you can in light of all of this.
Cindy Lopez: What are some signs of stress that we might see in young adults that would cause us to think they might need some help?
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: Yeah, really good question. I think the first sign is that we might start to notice that the young adult is not doing things they might have typically done, maybe it’s a hobby or an enjoyable activity, maybe this is playing an instrument or moving their body in some way, playing on a team of some sort. We might notice that there’s changes in sleep. They may report getting less sleep, maybe changes in appetite, right? We notice that they’re changing how they’re eating, maybe there’s uneasiness or irritability. We may notice that these can be very normative responses to stress, but we also want to be aware when they become just maybe a little too much. And to circle back to what we were talking about before, these are really good signs to be on the lookout for, and I want to acknowledge these behaviors can be signs of a lot of different things, maybe it’s stress, maybe it’s depression, maybe it’s anxiety, maybe it’s a relationship that’s ended, it can be so many different things. So, the same way we want to encourage that open communication about how to support the young adult around navigating other systems, we want to support this open communication about asking what’s going on to really help us get to the bottom of maybe these behaviors that we’re observing.
Cindy Lopez: So to just carry that thought out a little bit further, I’m wondering if a parent is listening and thinking, I am a little bit concerned about my son right now, who’s 20, right? And I wonder, like, how do I start that conversation with them?
If I am concerned, I don’t want them to think that they can’t handle it or that I am overly worried about them.I don’t want to create more stress by talking to them. How can I start that conversation as a parent?
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: Yeah, really important question, Cindy. I think I usually encourage the parents and caregivers I work with to just start by making observations, right? So I always like to think these are things if you were a fly on the wall, you could observe. They’re not judgments. They’re not, like, evaluations. They’re just simply things that you can see with your eyes. So, I’ve noticed you haven’t been eating with us at dinner, or I noticed I got a text from you at like 3 am last night, or I have noticed you haven’t been talking about going to play basketball much. Even saying I’ve noticed because there’s no sort of evaluation or shaming, there’s just this is a behavior that I can see when we start with that, then I would encourage just kind of asking from there, like a very broad question, “What’s going on? Is there something on your mind you want to talk about? Is there a reason you haven’t been going to play basketball?” You know, really showing sort of this genuine curiosity because I think especially when we’re stressed, sometimes we can be sort of hyper-aware to like judgments or critical evaluations from people we care about. So really sort of making these behavioral observations and then just asking open-ended questions and seeing where the conversation goes is often where I would sort of encourage parents or family members to start.
Cindy Lopez: That’s great because I think the parents I’ve talked with over the years who have young adult children are trying to walk that line, and they don’t always know when to intervene and when not to intervene. So I think just explaining what you did is really helpful. And, for those young adults out there who are listening, what are some strategies to help them themselves manage their stress?
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Yeah, great question, Cindy. I think strategies and tools are so vast, I simply can’t list them all. But I have a couple of ideas on where we can get started. The first that I would really emphasize is genuine self-compassion and validating oneself. So self-compassion is essentially a way to tell oneself I deserve kindness and love, and I’m worthy. It’s telling yourself that you are someone who deserves to take up space in this world and also that your stress doesn’t define you. I think there are a lot of strategies to develop self-compassion, but one way that I really appreciate doing this is self-validation. So telling yourself, my stress makes sense in light of all of these things going on, or it’s understandable that I feel this way because I did lose my job, or I did go through a breakup, or I’m figuring out a lot as I just moved to college. So it’s telling yourself that your emotions are valid in light of the situation or circumstance. And I think what that does is it removes us from the stressful situation in that moment a bit, allows us to take a step back and simply breathe and kind of also allows us to take it one step at a time. I often ask my clients, what’s something that you would tell a friend? And can you tell that to yourself in this situation? A lot of times, my clients will tell me, “You know, I think I am being too hard on myself,” right? They They may not realize it, but we often offer the kindest version of ourself to our loved ones or our friends, but not always to ourself.
I would say validating yourself is a way to improve your mind and the way that you’re looking at a situation, however, taking care of your body is also a wonderful way to help your mental health. So one skill that we have in a form of therapy called DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, is called the PLEASE skill. And it reminds us, through this acronym, to take care of different aspects of our health, which includes treating physical illnesses, eating well and nutritiously, avoiding mood altering substances. This doesn’t include prescribed medication, so this means do take your medication; sleeping in a manner that helps your body nourishes and sustains your body. So seven to nine hours and finally exercising in a way that is joyful for your body. So all of these things we know help us to regulate our mood to cope with stressors as they arise. And I always ask my clients how they’re doing with their physical health.
Cindy Lopez: And so as we think about that, there is a degree of self-awareness that each one of us needs to have because we need to know when our body is telling us something physically or emotionally, right. So I think a lot of mindfulness kinds of practices could be really helpful with that.
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Totally agree. I think mindfulness is definitely a popular method to combat stress. And the way I think of it is mindfulness isn’t just one strategy, but it could be a way of approaching life. And it means to be more in the present moment and to take an approach of curiosity and non-judgment, sort of like what Dr. Hoolihan was mentioning earlier with parents approaching their young adults. Mindfulness is an approach that one can take in a lot of situations. And when we’re stressed, a lot of the times our mind goes to those racing questions such as, “What if,” and we start to focus a lot on the stressor. Mindfulness brings us back to this moment and is more of asking what is right now? What’s happening in this moment? I heard that before, and it was a helpful way of phrasing it. Mindfulness is, what is, and our worries tell us, what if. So mindfulness brings us back to what is happening right now. And then people also ask me, well, how can I be more mindful, like, can you give me an actual tool or strategy?
And I like to go back to what do you find meaning in? For some folks, that’s spirituality. For some folks, it’s meditation. For others, it’s exercise, getting out in nature. So I think if you find what you value, it’ll be easier to practice mindfulness through those mechanisms. I personally love cultivating time to focus on my five senses, and I know this can help a lot of folks if they’re going through anxiety or panic. For instance, smelling your tea or coffee in the morning, noticing the color of the sky, listening to a favorite song or melody, feeling the soft fur of your pet or tasting your food more slowly.
Cindy Lopez: The idea of mindfulness, of taking care of ourselves, of just exercising some self-compassion. I also think that the community, and connection in community is helpful. Can you comment on that?
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Absolutely, especially right now when folks within the millennial generation and Gen Z are reporting such high levels of loneliness. And I think loneliness across the board has been described as an epidemic. I think social connection is ever the more important. I would definitely encourage young adults to think about who is part of their family or chosen family or friends, who are people that they can rely on? Maybe they’re in a new place such as college or a new city. So finding out, okay, can I build a deeper connection with a neighbor, community members? I’ve even heard of a lot of people finding success through different meetup apps to build connection through sports or other hobbies. So I think just in general being around community and then the additional aspect of that is seeking help when one needs it, so to know that they’re not alone, seeking help from a mental health professional or even in the form of a support group or spiritual community or that sort of thing.
Cindy Lopez: And so much of what we’ve been talking about really exercises, builds that resilience in people. And let’s take that just a little step further, explore that a little bit more. How do you build resilience?
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is being intentional about building up positive emotions and experiences when we’re able to. So we can think about these positive emotions and experiences as sort of filling up our gas tanks in a way, right? And this allows us to have more in the tank when stressful events hit, right? So simply put, the way that our cars don’t drive if they don’t have gas or electric charge, people can’t effectively go about the things in their life if their tanks are empty. And so when I work with clients, I often talk about this, even taking a step further to scheduling in those pleasant activities and those things that bring that positive emotion, right? The same way we schedule in doctor’s appointments and meetings and classes and other obligations. I really encourage my clients to schedule in those pleasant activities as well.
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Absolutely love that, Dr. Hoolihan. I think being intentional to create joy in our life can help us to focus less on the stress. I think going along with that, building that life that you want and living life on your terms is something that can help you be less likely to sweat the small stuff as they say. Of course, we’re going to sweat the small stuff, it’s a part and parcel of life. No one’s immune to that. However, if you think about it, if you have a greater purpose that you’re living for, the small things are not going to look as stressful in comparison. So you’re more likely to be able to withstand and to move forward from those things.
So when I talk about life worth living goals with my clients, I ask them, tell me about your values. What are the things that are important to you? Doesn’t have to necessarily be things that are important to your family. They might be similar, but it’s more what’s important to you. And then it’s really nice to hear, oh, I’ve always dreamed about X, Y, and Z. For example, becoming someone in this profession or traveling, helping my community. And I think that’s always really nice to build that sense of what they want in life.
Cindy Lopez: So we talked about this a little bit, but wondering if there’s any other comments you want to make about how parents and/or friends can help and support these young adults?
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: One thing I know I like, and I know Dr. Murtaza feels the same way, it’s always highlight validation. I know we have a whole podcast on validation, so I won’t dive too deep into this, but simply put, it is helpful for friends and family and loved ones to communicate to the young adult that what they’re experiencing, their feelings, their thoughts, that they make sense given a situation. This cannot only just be really to the young adult receiving it, but validation is also something that really helps build and improve relationships as well. So when we feel like seen and heard by the ones that we love and care about, that really helps us deepen relationships. So I always sort of say, if I could teach one skill to everyone, it would be validation.
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: I agree with that. Dr. Hoolihan. It’s such an important skill.
Cindy Lopez: We’ve devoted a whole episode to it. So to our listeners, yes, there is an episode on validation and some other dialectial behavioral therapy skills that Dr. Murtaza mentioned too. So a life worth living, for example, validation is a big tenant of DBT or dialectical behavioral therapy. There are several episodes on that. So, Dr. Murtaza, Dr. Hoolihan, thank you so much for sharing your insights and expertise with us today. As we close, I’m wondering if you have any final words you’d like to share with our listeners?
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: One main message I would like to highlight is that this is a really stressful time, right? Young adults are facing challenges that they may not have faced before in their lives. And, it’s really important to start by acknowledging the stress, either within yourself, if you’re a young adult listening, or if you’re a family member, a loved one, to be able to acknowledge that in the young adult that you care about. Invalidating or not acknowledging these stressors doesn’t change them at all. It simply makes it more difficult to navigate them.
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: So true. I totally agree, Dr. Hoolihan, that every individual is going to go through their own journey, and stress is often a part of that journey. One of the things I want to highlight is that you’re not alone. Any person going through stress, and a lot that goes along with that. It could be actually trauma that they’re going through, or they’re navigating. It could be a variety of stressors building up from childhood, whatever it is, you’re not alone. And the person next to you may be feeling that too, in their own way. So I think it’s important to challenge ourselves to become open, even if it’s by reaching out to one person, because we may not realize that the person next to us may be going through something too.
And the other thing I would say is if self-care strategies that we’ve mentioned here are not enough and you are feeling continued effects of chronic stress or you’re going through other mental health challenges, please do reach out to a mental health professional for additional support. I know the system can seem a bit confusing at time with reaching out. However, there are lots of folks willing to help you to find that professional support.
Cindy Lopez: And on that note too, you can reach out to CHC. We have a care team that can answer your call, answer an email, and connect you to the right people to talk with. You could even see somebody like Dr. Hoolihan or Dr. Murtaza at CHC. If you need to reach out, you can call us at 650-688-3625, or you can email our care team at careteam@chconline.org. So thank you, Dr. Murtaza and Dr. Hoolihan for joining us and to our listeners for joining us. And, I’m thinking about something that you said and that many of your colleagues have said in past episodes. And that’s be curious, be curious about yourself and what you’re thinking and what you’re feeling in your body. And also if you’re a parent or caregiver, be curious. Don’t assume that you know or because you see something you know why something is happening. So thank you again and to all of our listeners, we hope you’ll join us again for our next episode. .
Erin Hoolihan, PsyD: Thanks so much for having us, Cindy.
Zahra Murtaza, PhD: Thank you, Cindy. Pleasure to be here.
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