January 6, 2025
Cindy Lopez: Welcome. My name is Cindy Lopez, the host of this CHC podcast, Voices of Compassion. We hope you find a little courage, feel connected and experience compassion every time you listen.
Boundaries are an important part of parenting, but how do you know when and where to set boundaries and how to ensure your children respect those boundaries? In today’s episode, we talk with Victoria Cabrera, BCBA, and Hannah Fritz, both of whom are clinical psychology doctoral interns at CHC, and we explore the art of parenting with healthy boundaries. So listen in to learn what boundaries are, why they matter, and how setting consistent limits and clear expectations helps children feel secure and thrive. You’ll discover practical tips to create a balanced, respectful, and family dynamic.
Welcome, Victoria and Hannah. We’d love it if you could take a minute to tell our listeners a little more about yourselves and why this topic is an important one to discuss.
Hannah Fritz, MA: Thank you for having us on the podcast today. My name is Hannah Fritz. I’m a clinical child psychology intern at Children’s Health Council. My training has been in Los Angeles at USC, where I’m going to be getting my PhD in clinical psychology soon. I think this is a really important topic and one that we get a lot of questions about in the work that we do with families. A lot of the work that we do in therapy, in service of addressing children’s behavioral and emotional challenges is really actually work that’s done directly with the parents. And so whenever we have parents asking about, “Okay, how do I set appropriate limits? How do I set appropriate boundaries with my child?” We get excited because we know that that’s usually the most effective way to kind of scaffold behavior change in young children. We see your kid if they’re in therapy with us for only an hour per week, whereas you’re with your child 24-7. And so if we can be consistent about establishing good boundaries, healthy guidelines that can be really effective.
We also often have parents who have kind of an overload of information. We’re in this era of the internet and social media and tons of parenting books and parents at the PTA talking about what they just read in the New York Times, right? So there’s just this overwhelming flood of information for parents. And so, it’s important to think critically and parse through that information and really think about, okay, what is going to be healthy and effective for my child and for our family situation? So hopefully we’ll be able to provide some guidance or some direction for some of you all this morning.
Victoria Cabrera, MS, BCBA: And I’m Victoria Cabrera. I’m also a clinical child psychology doctoral intern at CHC, and I’m receiving my doctorate from Florida International University in Miami, where I’m from, and I’m also a bilingual clinician that provides services in English and Spanish. And actually parenting and setting boundaries is really one of my favorite spaces to work in, and I feel really passionate about this area just because it does have such, like, long-term impacts on children with the rest of their lives, really, just because it’s a foundational area in helping them interact in other settings with other people, so, interpersonally with relationships, and is really helpful thinking about how this can also impact their ability to work in careers down the line. So definitely, I see this as a very, very important area.
Cindy Lopez: So we all know we’re talking about boundaries today or setting limits. So let’s define boundaries. What are boundaries? Let’s talk about that for a minute before we dive into more questions and content.
Hannah Fritz: So boundaries in sort of the most basic definition is the limits that we set with children and teens. They are the rules and expectations that we set, the routines that we have in families and in school systems. And they really communicate our expectations, usually for behavior, but also for participation in social environments, in family life, in school. And they really are kind of the basic limits that we set and expectations that we have for how children will behave and participate.
Victoria Cabrera: I definitely think that it’s also helpful to consider that boundaries are things that everyone has to learn at one point or another, and you’ll probably hear Hannah and I use the words boundaries, expectations, limits, interchangeably because they can mean different things to different people, or even rules, for example, in the classroom would be an example of boundaries too. So overall, the role as a parent, a big role that parents have is to help set these precedents of how to interact or be in different settings and situations. And it’s really natural that as kids are exploring with their environment, they might push back on some of these things. And part of that too is because they’re in the process of learning what is healthy and appropriate behavior for different types of settings. So I think when we talk about boundaries and expectations, sometimes it’s not things that kids are super excited to follow, and I think that that’s really natural and makes a lot of sense.
Cindy Lopez: Boundaries and expectations are really part of any healthy relationship. And today we’re just focused on the parent/caregiver relationship with their child. So there might be boundaries that you have with your spouse or partner or that you have with other family members. And today we’re specifically focused on that parent/caregiver-child relationship.
Hannah Fritz: I’d love to add something to what Victoria’s saying about pushback. And it’s not only that we can expect that there may be pushback. We need to anticipate that there will be pushback. The way that I like to think of it is that it is a child’s job to find the limits and to find the edges of what’s okay and what’s allowed. And it’s important too, it’s developmentally appropriate, they are learning the rules of the space, they are learning the rules of their social environments, they are learning the rules of how to communicate with other people, physical space boundaries as well, right? And so, If we can think of it actually as their job to push against the boundaries that we set, it can also help us to be a little bit more empathic or compassionate when we are having a really tough moment where the kid is pushing back on our boundary, and remind ourselves that this is a very critical developmental process, and it is them doing the best that they can to be able to learn kind of what the scaffolding is of their environment. So yes, we need to expect that they are going to push back and that’s all right and that’s important. So we want to set clear, firm boundaries that are consistent, but also that are compassionate and kind of padded, if you will, so that they can really press up against those boundaries and bounce back.
Cindy Lopez: I really appreciate what you said, too, about it is the job of the child to like, press against the limits and to find out what is it that I can do within these boundaries? And as we think about that, how can parents or caregivers ensure that the children are respecting the boundaries that have been set? It’s not all about always telling them, no, don’t do that. So maybe talk about that a little bit.
Victoria Cabrera: Absolutely. So I think one of the first considerations that comes to mind is asking the question of is this a boundary that my child can implement independently without my support or is this something that they really need support on, and I’m going to really have to be like the leading figure in keeping the boundary. So for example, a really common situation that I hear from parents is children having a difficult time disconnecting from screen time and parents will feel really frustrated, for example, if they’ve given an instruction like please turn off the TV and the child isn’t turning off the TV. So that’s a situation where perhaps like the way to set the child up for success is really putting the boundary in place by the parent doing so, so meaning like at 10 pm, I’m gonna turn off the TV because it’s bedtime at that time.
So really asking, is this something that my child is ready and able to do on their own, or is this more appropriate for me to really step in and take a leading role here? And I think often times through that process of repetition, giving the child opportunities and then seeing like, oh, it seems like they need more support, so I’m going to take more of a leading role is helpful. And then overall too in psychology, we talk a lot about these terms that are called reinforcement, right? And reinforcement basically means having a behavior happen more frequently because of something that follows it. So, we use the term consequence and sometimes the word consequence can be loaded as something positive or negative, but in psychology, the word consequence literally means anything that happens directly after a behavior, an instruction. So through positive reinforcement, what this looks like is putting in like extra praise or attention or even rewards related to going along with those boundaries. So, “I really loved how you took your plates to the sink. So you get an extra cookie after dinner because I didn’t even have to ask you to do it, you did it all by yourself.” So that’s an example of a child following an expectation and the parent kind of adding in something to help it become more likely that the child will go along with the expectation or boundary that’s put in place by the parent.
And, I think the other side of this, it’s not so much thinking about what parents are adding in. I think a huge part of whether or not a boundary will kind of be followed or not is consistency. So a lot of that comes from the parent side. So is the parent really adhering and following through with whatever that expectation was? So, let’s say the expectation is we need to be in bed by 9:30 so that in the morning we can have waffles for breakfast. So then that means that if the kids are in bed at 10, maybe they’re going to have eggs for breakfast and they’re not going to have waffles because that was the boundary or their expectation that was put in place. So, it’s really important to think about is the boundary or the expectation that I’m setting something that I’m able to be consistent with and follow through with regularly? It’s really through that practice of repetition that kids are able to really absorb a boundary or an expectation and eventually stop pushing back on it because they kind of understand that oh, this is how things are done. I think a really great example of that is how kids in the school setting really adhere super well with the transitions that happen between different subjects. And if you think about recess, it’s such a fun time for so many kids, but when the bell rings very often they’re running back to the class because they know that they have to go on to math or science, right? So they have so much history of repetition that that boundary is adhered to and that math and science start at this time, so it makes it easier for them to move through these routines.
Hannah Fritz: I’ll add a couple things to what Victoria was saying about positive reinforcement, just to kind of put a few more psychology terms or maybe put a finer point on some of her comments here. When we’re using positive reinforcement, it’s really important that the positive reinforcement follows the positive behavior as soon as possible. So the reward we want to be immediately after whatever the desired behavior is, you see the desired behavior and you immediately are giving that praise. And if you’re going to use praise, which for kids is really, really effective. A lot of times parents worry that praise isn’t going to be enough and we have to use rewards, that we have to use candy. Parent attention is hugely influential, even if it doesn’t seem like it’s sinking in all of the way in the way that you might want them to respond. Parent attention and praise is really, really effective, especially if it’s very specific and labeled. So, specific praise: Victoria’s example of, wow, I really love how you put your dishes in the dishwasher right after dinner. So that’s very specific. It’s telling the child, I really liked what you did, right? That’s the praise piece and the specific piece is I really like what you did and this is what you did that I liked, so we’re really being specific not just that like mom is happy with something that you did, but mom is happy specifically about the fact that you put the dishes in the dishwasher right after dinner. So we’re really kind of linking all of those pieces together to really guide that behavior to be repeated over time. Really wanting to make sure that we are very clear about what the behavior is that we are happy about and would like to see again.
Victoria Cabrera: I think another piece here is setting up the environment for success so that a boundary can be more easily adhered to. So for example, if it’s really important and valued in the family to not have so many sweets during the week, maybe having some deliciously baked chocolate cookies on top of the counter is going to be really, really hard to set the child up for success to adhering to that expectation. Or, for example, if you want your child in bed by 9:30 pm. If the TV is still on, it’s going to be really hard for them to really disconnect and want to go to bed at that time that’s desired. So, thinking ahead to, is the environment set up for success?
I think one of the biggest things too, kind of just related to screen time, because I feel like that’s such a common challenge for many families is a parent might give an instruction, but if the screen is on, it’s really hard for the child to be paying attention to that instruction and makes it less likely that they’re going to follow through with whatever that request is. So, like, thinking ahead, the strategy would be making sure that you have the child’s full attention before giving an instruction or setting an expectation.
Hannah Fritz: That works with partners too. I will say if my partner is doing something else on their phone, it is very difficult to get any of my boundary setting through or any communications really at all. So yes, definitely setting the person up for success is critical.
Cindy Lopez: What you referenced earlier, well, Victoria, you referenced some like school or classroom rules. And so from my lens, which is as an educator for almost 40 years, I’ve always been one and communicated to parents, like boundaries are important because the children know then what the limits are and they know there’s freedom within those limits and within that structure. And once they know what they are, they feel safe, and they feel more comfortable to really even take risks. And I think when we talk about learning and in the classroom, one of the things that for kids to really learn is to be able to feel like they can take risks. So as we think about all of that—and you referenced this earlier, Hannah—kids it’s their job to push back against those boundaries. So does that happen? What does that look like?
Hannah Fritz: Yeah, I really love what you’re saying about how boundaries are really important for kids to feel safe. I think that’s a huge takeaway is that boundaries are not punitive, right? They are designed to give scaffolding and structure to the developmental environment and that helps kids to feel safe and secure in their attachment relationships with parents and with teachers and other kinds of caregiving adults in their lives as well. If we don’t have those boundaries in place, that can feel really destabilizing and disorganized and unsafe because we don’t have a container, right? So if the kid is kind of bouncing up against the edge of the boundaries, really what they’re asking is, am I safe? Are you paying attention? Am I contained? Are you taking care of me really, right? And they may push back in a way that’s like, well, why are you telling me that I can’t eat ice cream for dinner, but ultimately, if we think about it on kind of a more meta level, they’re really asking, what are the guide rails here? Are there guide rails here so that I know that I’m safe and contained and that I have this secure relationship and you’re going to show up for me when I hit the edge of the boundary, right? That’s a really important piece.
Victoria Cabrera: I think another thing that I started thinking about, now as Hannah was talking about this container that comes to mind, is boundaries around aggression and different behaviors, like sometimes kids will hit a sibling or will be like rough with sharing when it comes to a peer or a sibling. And when it comes to these types of difficulties, I think that they’re highlighting also like an emotion or self-regulation piece in the child and ultimately setting boundaries around those types of things is important because it helps the child understand how to go about regulating and why it’s important for them to also want to be regulating themselves.
So I think thinking about that when you’re dealing with a really young child, sharing is not super fun because if I can have the toy myself, I’m going to want to have the toy. So it’s almost like introducing this other element that’s going to help the child understand why is this important and ultimately support the development of a higher level skill and higher level behavior in a way that’s communicating to them how they can learn. So I think with boundaries it’s not always that it’s immediately clear to the child why it’s helpful for them to learn something, and I think again why it’s our role as like the adults to help teach these different abilities and skills.
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Cindy Lopez: So we’ve talked about kids kind of pushing the limits so to speak. So are all boundaries healthy?
Hannah Fritz: That’s a good question. And that’s a question that we get quite a lot from parents. Again, I think we have to think about boundaries as something that help to facilitate security and structure and safety for a child, right? So, they’re critical developmental skills that as parents, you’re responsible for crafting, which is a tall order. And like we said before, you know, kids are going to kind of push back against those boundaries, that’s going to help them to feel safe and contained and supported and like the parents are paying attention. And those kinds of boundaries that are consistent and clearly communicated that are reasonable and developmentally appropriate, right? Those kinds of boundaries, generally speaking, are healthy kinds of boundaries because the child knows what to expect. They know what to expect every single time they behave in a certain way. They know exactly how Dad is going to respond in that kind of situation and that kind of consistency is very healthy and predictable for a child. If we’re getting into inconsistent kinds of boundary setting or punitive, reactive kinds of boundary setting. If we’re setting boundaries when we’re angry or scared, right? A lot of times when a child will do something that scares the parent, the parent will react with anger and will set a really hard boundary. We want to try to avoid doing that because we want the boundaries to be something that are expected and safe and healthy, something that we’re agreeing together that this is how we’re going to be with each other. So we want to try to avoid any kind of inconsistency or setting boundaries in those, kind of heated, hot kinds of moments that do sometimes come up.
Victoria Cabrera: I think related to that piece, I like what you mentioned, Hannah, there about boundaries are expected. So when I think about boundaries, I really think about them as expectations and not a reaction or a response to something that was undesirable or inappropriate, right? And the reason for that is typically, you’re going to get a lot more reaction and anger in response to something that’s set in the moment as opposed to something that’s been notified or discussed prior. So for example, setting the expectation of, we’re going to leave the birthday party an hour early because it’s important for us to make it to your grandmother’s house this afternoon. That’s setting a very clear expectation as opposed to being at the birthday party and saying, “It’s time to go because we have to go to your grandma’s.” We’re probably going to get a lot of like upset reactions in that situation. So always helpful to really lean on the expectation side of things and think about it as setting up the rules for a situation.
Oftentimes, we’ll ask parents to ask themselves, is the thing that I’m asking reasonable for my child’s age? Are other kids similar to them able to adhere to these certain expectations? And usually if that answer is, yes, it does feel like it’s a healthy, appropriate boundary to be setting for the child. I really encourage parents to ask that question because oftentimes, it can feel really overwhelming to endure distress with your child, to endure the pushback, and it really introduces a lot of self-doubt from the parent’s side of things, and it’s so, so hard and just because this consistency piece is so critical for really the boundaries being like healthy and setting the child up for success. I think it’s really important to help address what’s also going on for the parent in these situations. And oftentimes asking that question to themselves provides that validation and the reassurance to the parents of the thing that I’m doing is healthy and supportive of my child.
Cindy Lopez: So you’ve given us some really great examples of boundaries that parents might set and also just for parents and caregivers to be mindful of setting those expectations ahead of time, not just in the moment. Let’s talk for a minute about getting children involved in defining those boundaries or those expectations. How does that work? And do you want to do it?
Victoria Cabrera: So I definitely think children should be involved in developing boundaries, expectations, whenever it’s appropriate. There’s definitely some situations where a child is probably able to understand and agree with the boundary or expectation, and then maybe there’s some that are really hard for them to get on board with. So, for example, as a kid I would have eaten ice cream for every single meal and that seems like a really great idea to me, but it probably wouldn’t have been great for my health and my development and my overall growth. So, I think when it comes to boundaries where the child is less likely to understand or agree, having a conversation with them and letting them know what it is, is really important and that’s why I think that they’re involved in that regard.
So, communicating to them the reason behind a boundary first, I think, is always really effective, and you can do this in a concise way. I think that it’s also really helpful to always introduce the reason before the boundary itself because this helps kind of prevent some back and forth of negotiating or, but why, when the expectation or the boundary is set. So for example, I’m saying something like, for you to grow big and strong, it’s important to eat healthy foods. That’s helping set up the reason and again, limiting the, but why, when the next part follows, which is the expectation. And then a nice kind of trick or formula that I like to give families is something called a first and then statement or an if and then statement. So it communicates really clearly to the child what the expectation is. So first, you need to eat your dinner, and then you can have a cookie. So this is explaining very clearly, in terms that are appealing for the child, what needs to be done so that their interests can also be met in that situation.
Hannah Fritz: Yeah, I really agree. I think involving children and defining boundaries it is situation dependent and child dependent, but I think as much as possible involving children and defining those boundaries, what those boundaries actually are is really important especially if we’re thinking about boundary setting as a developmental skill that we are modeling for them, effective and healthy ways to negotiate in relationships. If we can demonstrate to them how to establish those kinds of healthy boundaries, how to communicate those healthy boundaries to other people, they’re more likely to be able to take those things on as they become teens and adults that they’re going to become, right, that they’re going to be able to have those kinds of boundary setting processes for themselves, you know, more firmly established.
I will say that even if the boundary itself or the limit itself is not something that the child, maybe agrees with like Victoria’s example of eating ice cream for dinner every night, I probably would have done that too. Actually, it would have been mac and cheese for me, and there was a boundary around that, but even if it is something that the child doesn’t necessarily agree with setting up the expectation in advance, having a conversation, so involving them maybe not necessarily in defining exactly what the limit or the expectation is but involving them in the process of setting that limit can be really useful and important for their development as well.
Victoria Cabrera: I think often times parents feel nervous or hesitant to have conversations about boundaries before the big event or the situation, right, like Hannah mentioned cause they’re worried that this will then bring up an argument when they’re not necessarily having to argue or deal with the situation, but it really does make it less likely that when the situation is occurring, there’s going to be confusion or negotiation or kind of pushback happening. So I definitely agree that having conversation leading up to boundaries or expectations is really, really helpful, and not just directly before the situation.
Hannah Fritz: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I really agree with that. I think especially involving the child as much as possible for any child is really healthy. A lot of the work that I do is with kids who’ve experienced trauma, and a lot of parents are really, really concerned that if they establish boundaries, that it’s going to harm their child or re-traumatize their child. That’s a very, very common concern, especially for parents who’ve had kids with really early life trauma or family related trauma. And even more the case with kids who’ve experienced trauma, they need those boundaries, they need extra padding around those boundaries, but they need those boundaries to feel safe and secure and to re-establish secure attachments. And they also need it to be very clearly articulated what the expectations are and even more consistent than ever before, right? So we want to be clear, we want to be reasonable, and we want to be as consistent as possible and involving them in that process can really help avoid any kind of retraumatization or any kind of fear response.
Victoria Cabrera: I think a way to involve children in this process too is by allowing choices within the boundary. So if the expectation is that it’s homework time, we need to sit down and complete homework. A choice could be, for example, do you want to work on the math homework first or the reading homework? So it’s providing autonomy within the greater situation or if it’s important to finish eating dinner, do you want to eat the protein or the vegetables, et cetera. But then that way, it does create a level of autonomy within the greater situation, which could be challenging when it’s initially being enforced or put in place.
Cindy Lopez: So as we’re talking about all of this, boundary setting, is it possible that parents or caregivers could set too many boundaries or, you know, like, could it cross over into controlling?
Hannah Fritz: Yes, it certainly can. It is generally best to set boundaries sort of only where they’re actually needed and to avoid setting extraneous boundaries where they’re not really necessary for your child or for your family. Boundaries are going to evolve across childhood as your child grows. So we want to be also loosening up some boundaries as your child grows up and is able to stay out later, might be having a curfew instead of a “no going out on the weekends with your friends” kind of boundary setting.
And actually thinking back to something that Cindy said earlier about how it’s important that when we set boundaries, kids know where the edges of expectation are and then they can be free within those boundaries. It’s really, really important to have freedom within those boundaries. So we’re not talking about stacking boundaries on boundaries on boundaries and limits on limits on limits so that they have no other choice over how they behave or over what kinds of things they do or say, but we are establishing just enough boundaries to provide the scaffolding for healthy development and for appropriate social behavior, right? But also we’re allowing for there to be as much flexibility as possible. So if you don’t need to set a boundary around that, don’t set a boundary around that, right. And until maybe you do find that you need to set a boundary around that, but some kids need quite a lot of boundaries and other kids really don’t need that much. And they can kind of figure out where those edges are for themselves. So facilitating that kind of freedom and autonomy within those boundaries is really important. It also really helps them to develop the person who they are too, right? If we’re thinking about how they’re going to manage their own relationships growing up, how they’re going to manage their own self-expression growing up, we want them to have the opportunities. Although sometimes it feels a little scary, right, for them to make mistakes and recover from those mistakes and kind of learn how to set those appropriate boundaries for themselves and how to express themselves in a way that’s really authentic to them.
Victoria Cabrera: Definitely having too many boundaries or expectations I do not think is effective and the reason why I don’t think it’s effective is really because not only does it kind of maybe remove a lot of space for fun? But it’s also incredibly difficult to be consistent with way too many things happening at the same time. And overall, if you want boundaries to be really supportive and beneficial for your child that follow through and consistency is really just so important. So sometimes having only a few boundaries or expectations that you really follow through with all the time is better than having 20 things that you’re mentioning or trying to keep track of.
So if boundaries are being loosely adhered to, then the child’s gonna loosely follow them. So that’s just again why that consistency piece is really just so so important. And if you’re listening to this podcast today really thinking about, “Oh, I’m so motivated to implement some boundaries with my family.” My first piece of advice is really to start small and maybe think about one area that you want to set some boundaries on and then just really adhere to that area consistently until you feel like you’ve gotten some kind of mutual understanding and respect to that boundary with your child before implementing or introducing something else. And again, the reason for that is if you want to set the child up for success in being able to kind of learn this new system or this new structure, you don’t want to be doing too much too fast because it could be really overwhelming.
Hannah Fritz: For the child and for the parent, right? Like if we’re establishing way too many boundaries, you’re going to burn yourself right out because you cannot remember all of them right for your child, cause they’re not going to remember all of them. You have to remember all of them. You have to remember what the limits were that you set. You have to be consistent and all of those things take energy and time and patience, patience, patience. And so if you set too many and you can’t actually hold all of that, you’re gonna burn out and your child is also gonna learn that the boundaries actually don’t really mean very much, and they’ll start to kind of tune them out, right? So selecting is essential.
Cindy Lopez: Thank you so much, Victoria and Hannah for being with us today, sharing your expertise and insights on this topic. Before we actually sign off, I’m wondering if there’s anything else that you really want to make sure our listeners hear from you today.
Victoria Cabrera: I’ve said this really throughout the podcast, and I hope that maybe it’s a theme that people have taken away, but I really do believe that consistency is so, so important and such a key ingredient for this being really effective for you as a parent and then also something that then your child will able to be able to benefit from. So I think that that consistency aspect is everything.
Hannah Fritz: Yeah, agreed. My takeaway would be that yes, boundaries are healthy, developmentally appropriate, and consistent boundaries are healthy. They’re really, really important for kids to feel safe and secure in their relationships, and they’re important for their overall development as a human being, being able to set those boundaries for themselves also eventually, as a really critical skill.
Thanks for having us on.
Cindy Lopez: To our listeners, if you’re in a place where you think you might need some help doing this, we do have parent coaching available at CHC. You can call our care team at 650-688-3625, or you can reach out to them via email careteam@chconline.org. So Victoria and Hannah, thank you again for joining us and to our listeners as well.
Hannah Fritz: Thank you so much.
Victoria Cabrera: Thank you.
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