December 12, 2024
Cindy Lopez: Welcome. My name is Cindy Lopez, the host of this CHC podcast, Voices of Compassion. We hope you find a little courage, feel connected and experience compassion every time you listen.
Effective communication can be tricky. In today’s episode, we talk with Jennifer Leydecker, clinical program manager at CHC and an expert on dialectical behavior therapy, or DBT as we call it. You’ll learn how DBT strategies can transform the way we communicate, and we’ll discuss practical tools like mindfulness, validation, and dialectics to express your needs, set boundaries, and build stronger, more authentic connections. Whether it’s navigating conflict or deepening relationships, these evidence-based techniques will help you communicate with clarity, compassion, and confidence.
So, welcome, Jenn. We’re so glad to have you back on our podcast again, andI think that we all get the importance of communication and probably at the same time, none of us are perfect in our communication with others. So before we dive into this topic of communication and DBT, why don’t you take a minute to tell us a little bit more about you and why this topic is so important to discuss.
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: So I am the clinical program manager of the RISE Intensive Outpatient Program, and we work with families in crisis, and they’re with us for nine weeks in a really intensive program. And also as a parent myself to a tween and two six-year-old boys, I think communication within families is incredibly important, both in how to listen and then also how to respond and share your thoughts and emotions with the people around you and that you’re closest to. And so, for me, I would say communication is one of the places that we really see our family struggle, and it’s not a skill that we are taught. And so, in DBT, there’s so many skills around communication, but there are a couple I think within relationships, both parent relationships, parent-child relationships. It’s really important for us to focus in on some of these strategies.
Cindy Lopez: Yeah. All of us communicate every day, different people, different ways. And so we can probably all stand to get better at it and improve our communication skills. And for our listeners, just so you know, we have several other podcast episodes that we’ve done on the topic of DBT in different ways. So, feel free to look up some of those in our Voices of Compassion Podcast series. Today we’re talking about DBT strategies to really enhance our communication skills. So before we dive into the whole communication piece, though, Jenn, could you tell us a little bit more about DBT again?
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: So, DBT was developed out of cognitive behavioral therapy, which is what most people are familiar with. And I think out of that because it was developed on individuals that had really difficult times regulating their emotions, engaging in effective relationships, navigating high risk behaviors or just kind of impulsive behaviors that would sometimes make life really difficult. It integrates cognitive behavioral therapy strategies, mindfulness based strategies. There’s also acceptance work that comes into play. And so it’s a really dynamic therapy that really relies on the relationship with the therapist. And then also a lot of skill building does come from that kind of skills deficit model where we’re learning how to regulate our emotions or even just identify what they are and then how to communicate. And when is it a good idea to communicate because sometimes when we’re really emotional, and you can tell I have little kids when the emotions are driving the bus, they really take over. And so we don’t get our point across the way that we want to, or we might say something that might have an impact on the relationship that we have with the other person. And so, for us in DBT, that space of really leaning into the skill side and really also at the same time focusing on what are all of the positive things that we’re experiencing in life. The ultimate goal of DBT is to have a life worth living. So it’s introduced as this evidence based treatment for suicidality and self-harm in teens and adults, and it really is a therapy about building a life worth living and having strong relationships is part of that.
Cindy Lopez: Building the skills now, like, when you’re not in your high stress mode or in crisis is a good idea because when you are in crisis, it’s probably not the time to think about building new skills. So to all of our listeners, I hope you’re thinking about how you might build some of these skills into your communication strategies and tool set now.
For me personally, we had a death in the family about a month ago and yeah, communication is hard. I mean, we all think we’re doing it and trying our best, but it’s just in that kind of stressful situation, emotional situation, you go back to kind of what is innate, maybe. And so you kind of forget the skills you learned. So just again, outside of the emotional crisis time, like if you’re not in, that now’s the time to learn some of these skills.
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: We talk a lot with our families about practicing the skills when we’re calm because we then have the muscle memory to be able to call on them when we are really upset. We’ve practiced them, we use them. So even like our crisis skills that are really around making it through those really big emotions without making the situation worse. We want them to practice it when they’re calm. So we’re doing our breathing exercises in a session just to practice them. We’re having them practice them outside and it’s the same with our communication strategies. When we practice them and we’re using them on kind of neutral conversations or even using our communication skills when we’re ordering our drinks, like our bobas, or we’re having a conversation with somebody when we’re trying to return clothing that we bought, we can use those skills in smaller ways to get used to the framework to then in that moment when we really need to use validation on a friend who’s distressed, we know how to say it and it feels authentic. It doesn’t feel scripted. It’s like, I totally understand where you’re at in this space right now, which is really helpful in that idea of practicing having that really deep connection with the skills to then, when our brain is hijacked, we’re able to be really clear.
Cindy Lopez: Yeah. And as we think about communication, it’s all obviously trying to talk to others, trying to communicate with others in one way or another. And so let’s talk about interpersonal effectiveness for a minute. Communication is a big part of that. I know that that’s also a part of DBT, so maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: Yeah, our interpersonal effectiveness skills are one of the four core modules of skills that we teach our families. And within that, it’s kind of broken into two. And one of them is the focus of those sets of skills is really leaning into knowing how to ask for what you want. It’s how to get your opinion heard by other people. And then also how to say no cause I think for some of us saying no can be really tricky in terms of balancing holding a line, while also thinking of the relationship that I have with this person. And then also thinking about myself. I think sometimes, in different ways, we might extend or give a little bit of our self-respect in order to get what we want out of a situation. And in the end, we don’t feel great after we’ve done that. If we’ve kind of extended our limits and not gotten something in return, it can actually fracture the relationship, too. And so that kind of structure that we provide in DBT, there’s acronyms and structures for a lot of those things. And so, for those specific skills, we have the DEAR MAN, which is the formula of how do you ask for something. And I kind of relate it to like the I message or the I statement that kids are taught in elementary school and really how to express their emotions. It’s kind of that piece by piece, just to make it so that everybody’s speaking the same language. And the DEAR MAN is that.
I think the other piece with the DEAR MAN that we talk about is, one part is like, what do I say? And the other part is how do I do it? And I think that can be really helpful for some of our teens and parents who can get easily derailed. We use the example of like dishes or laundry as things that we navigate within households, but so it’s like, if you’re asking somebody to put the dishes away from the dishwasher, and you’re frustrated because they’ve been sitting in the dishwasher for a couple days, you’re going to sometimes receive something from the other person where they’re going to try to derail your ask. And so how do you stick to that in that moment? And sometimes it’s also respecting what the other person is asking and saying, like, “I hear you. I want to give you space and let’s stay on topic with this right now.” And so I think that structure of the DEAR MAN is really important. And then I brought up the idea of like relationships and our self-respect, and then we have GIVE and FAST , which are also acronyms and those really help us forgive. It’s really respecting the relationship or prioritizing the relationship as part of the conversation. So you might be a little bit more gentle in the way that you ask them to put the dishes away, or you might be validating in the fact that you know work has been really stressful for them, or that for your teen, they have had this ongoing peer conflict that they’re trying to navigate. And so you might validate their emotions. And we’re going to talk a little bit more about validation, which I think is a really big component of our skills. And then the other part is our FAST skill, which is really around our self-respect, which in its core is being truthful and really sticking to our values.
So it’s important to know what our values are around a specific topic before we step in, and I think that’s another piece that sometimes we miss as parents, we might have a really strong response to something that we learn that our child has done or a friend of theirs have done. And we haven’t thought through, like, what our values are around that before we have this really strong emotional response. And so our communication gets really muddy, really quick. And so that kind of context of DEAR MAN. I kind of say like the GIVE and FAST kind of kicker can be really helpful in navigating those things as well. And then, some of the other communication strategies that I think are kind of more global are, what does it mean to be dialectics? Dialectical behavioral therapy is the therapy that we do, but dialectics is very theoretical. And so it’s like, how do I put that into practice? What does it mean to balance two opposing points of view or two opposites? And then also validation, which for us, if we can really start integrating that into a family system where everyone is using validation in one way or another, it really takes the temperature down in the space and can be really helpful. And those are all lumped into interpersonal effectiveness skills in DBT.
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Cindy Lopez: So, Jenn, obviously you’re an expert at DBT. You use it every day in your clinical practice. I’m just wondering how does that translate to your like personal and family life? Do you find yourself using those tools or does it just feel out of place?
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: I think one of the things as a DBT practitioner is I am not doing anything that I’m not expecting my clients to do. So, I use DBT all the time in my day-to-day. I think there are times where my daughter will kind of joke around. She’s 12, she’s in sixth grade. And she’ll kind of joke around of like, “Mom, you’re doing the therapy thing,” because I am using validation. I am really supporting her in that moment. Sixth grade is a rough transition and so that idea of just sitting with her and like, sometimes we’re just sitting on the floor and like talking through and I’m finding ways to validate her in that space. And even though she knows I’m doing it, she knows I’m a therapist, it’s still really impactful. It still helps her in that moment.
My twin boys have not caught on yet, but I have one who I say feels all the feels. He is my emotional center. And so he gets a lot of validation from me in those spaces because he’s learning how to regulate his big emotions. And so there’s some DBT skills that are integrated into that. We do mindfulness practices together and that’s part of DBT also – and so all of those pieces.
The one thing that I catch myself sometimes with my partner is we talk a lot in DBT about being non-judgmental. And so that’s integrated into my day-to-day of like, that’s a judgment or like, I’m interpreting that right there. I kind of say like the story I’m telling myself in the background, while somebody’s telling me their story. And so I’ll like kind of nudge my partner, like that was a judgment. Can we look at that a little bit differently or things like that. And so, there are times where she’s not as cheery about that, but it definitely helps I think in that space of, like, reframing things, in the language that we use is really important in our communication.
Cindy Lopez: Since I’ve learned about DBT, one of the things that seems like it should be automatic for us or that we would know it, but I don’t think we do – and that’s holding two different truths at the same time. Can you talk more about that, maybe give some examples?
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: Yeah. I think right with the idea in dialectics of like holding two perspectives or balancing opposites. The way that we sometimes look at it is in a discussion, there’s one perspective and what we navigate most often is the parent perspective. And then we have the teen perspective, and one does not have to negate the other, right? You can look at both perspectives, and there’s something on each side that can be recognized as their truth, and so I think that piece sometimes I would say is where a lot of us get stuck in “This is my perspective. I am holding this and I’m not letting this go.” And the other person is just as staunchly holding their perspective. And there’s no way to meet in the middle or any sort of what we call a middle path, which doesn’t have to be the exact middle, but it’s joining of the two options in a way that recognizes the emotional needs of both sides. So validation is part of that. Recognizing sometimes why people hold the beliefs that they hold, or why is my teen really digging in on this one specific event? And there’s no changing their perspective.
So, like, we use the example of going to a concert. For teens, music is part of their identity. I would say, even for adults, right, we attach to that one band or that one person that is really impactful on our identity. And so that kind of dynamic between parent and teens of like, well, the concert is really late or it’s on a school night or I’m like, I don’t really know that I like that music. And so I don’t want you to go or there’s safety reasons why you might not want your teen to go, and is there a way for you to find some way that meets the needs of both? So if it’s a safety issue, we sometimes talk it through where parents go with their teen to the concert, right? They’re kind of hanging out, but they recognize this is really important to my child. It’s a really big piece–instead of getting stuck in all of the reasons why it’s a no, hopefully through seeing things in a dialectical perspective and then also validating their experience, we can get them in closer to meeting, right? The initial response is, well, “I’m just going to go with you,” a teen’s going to be like, “Absolutely not. I would rather not go.” And if you can express, “Here are my concerns, this is why I’m kind of holding this perspective,” then the teen can kind of see like, okay, they’re thinking through this versus that automatic, “no.” and from the parent’s side, sometimes it’s, “Okay, it’s been a while since I’ve been a teenager. What am I missing? Why are they so in this spot of, ‘I have to go. This is so important.’ I’m missing something because I’m not understanding.” So taking a minute and considering what is it that is not being said in this conversation. And sometimes asking the questions. “Can you help me understand?” And then reflecting that back to them. “So it sounds like this is really important to you because when you were really struggling last year, this was the music that got you through that difficult time.” Or, “This is music that you listen to to really motivate you. And so you want to see it in person.” I think we talked a lot about like, what’s your hype song with the kids sometimes, but like, what’s the music that you listen to like get yourself ready for the day or like when you’re anxious about a big test.
So we use music as kind of the example, because I think it crosses generations, but at the same time, there are other things where it’s just like, I want to go hang out with my friends. And so finding ways within that to honor both sides. It doesn’t mean that it’s always a yes. I think that’s sometimes the hardest part. And if you can honor both sides and recognize that. It actually reduces the tension.
Cindy Lopez: You just said something really important, too, for everyone and that is, validation doesn’t mean that you’re agreeing with the other person, doesn’t mean that your boundaries are not your boundaries. Sometimes people might see validation as, like, feeling like it’s manipulative, like trying to get the other person to your point of view, when in fact, it’s not.
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: Validation is recognizing the other person’s side. And so, like an example that I will use is like I have family that are from the Midwest, very different values and beliefs than what I hold and who I am at my core. I can understand why they hold those values because of where they live specifically, and then also how they were raised and what their upbringing and their community has been in terms of holding those values. So it’s not an agreement. I can understand why that happened. And so sometimes that bridges that gap in that space of I can still really be upset that that creates a disconnect in our relationship. And at the same time, it decreases my frustration or animosity in some ways to their perspective.
So I think one of the other pieces, when we were talking about dialectics, that is looking at the similarities between people versus looking at the differences, right? So what brings us together? Because we are connected to people. I mean, we’re all on earth together. If we want to extend it out to this really big piece and even in things like the current political climate. We’re still connected to those people, and sometimes sitting with your teen, looking at what makes you similar. We all care about our friends, our adult friends, our teen friends. So using that sometimes is like, oh, I can understand that my teen, their friends are really important to them. Because I have friends that I spend time with because that’s important to me, and so those similarities can also be really helpful. And then you can validate that too, because you can understand why they want to be with their friends. It’s very developmentally appropriate. And at the same time, that’s where they find joy. And so finding ways to really acknowledge that in that space can be really helpful.
Cindy Lopez: You mentioned too, I think it was in the example you’re giving with your partner, that judgment space. It reminded me that when we’re talking to someone, like in my head, I’m looking at that person, I’m listening, I think I’m listening, but also in my head, I’m formulating a response and/or saying, “Okay, I’m not going to act this way,” or it’s not a healthy response, right? In my head, I’m thinking, okay, a couple different things: I’m one, I’m formulating my response, two, I’m kind of judging them. So do you have any pointers for us and for our listeners about how do you stay in the space where you’re really listening?
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: I think for us, it’s really, we talk about like mindfulness, we integrate it into everything we do. So attending to the moment with the person. So sometimes while you’re listening to what they’re saying, if you find your mind kind of going to that story, it’s attending to their facial expressions, their body language. And what we say is, “If I can’t experience it through my five senses, it is not a fact.” So then it’s an interpretation, right? And the way that we kind of talk about this sometimes is our brain, it takes information in at a very rapid rate and is interpreting it and we just have to catch ourselves because sometimes it’s like that’s not what was said, that was what I was hearing and telling myself was not being said or because I had this previous interaction with them now that’s extra data that I’m kind of bringing into the story as opposed to just sitting in the moment with them. So sometimes it’s just pulling yourself back or coming in in smaller chunks. So sometimes when we sit down with our teens or like the download at the end of the day with our partners, and it’s like five minutes of them just talking at us. That’s really hard to hold all of that information. So like small chunks and then saying like a level of validation that we talked about is reflecting back. So you can say, “Okay, can we pause for a minute?” And I just want to make sure that I’m understanding what you’re saying and reflecting back. So it sounds like you had this conversation with your friend, and they said this and you were hurt by that. Is that right? And then they get the chance to say, “No, it was this,” or “Yeah, like I couldn’t believe that she said that to me” or that, that she just walked away after she said it, right. So it kind of slows the pace of the conversation down too. And then you also get these small moments where you get to demonstrate to whoever you’re talking to, I’m listening to you. Like level one of validation is paying attention, it’s putting everything down. How often are we having a conversation with somebody we also have our phone in our hand or our phone is face up on the table in front of us, right? So it’s that idea of like putting the phone face down or like moving it completely and facing the person. You don’t have to make eye contact because that doesn’t work for everybody or sometimes like side-by-side on the couch or while you’re driving in the car. Having those conversations where they have your full attention and they know it, can be really helpful and that’s just level one.
And then the other one is really paying attention to what is going on. What are the signals that you’re seeing, right? As family members, we kind of know when other people are experiencing different things in terms of like their body language signals to us or the way that they’re talking. I think of like that idea of like stomping around the house because they’re really upset, but they don’t know how to articulate it. That’s the one place where we’re like, okay, you can interpret that information because you know them, and you can observe that and then describe it to them. “I noticed that you’re walking really heavy. It seems like your body’s really tense. What’s going on?” And that, like, you’re paying attention. And that demonstrates to them, like, okay, they keyed in. And now I gotta talk about it. And they can say, like, I don’t wanna talk about it yet. It’s like, okay. So then kind of, another thing that we talk about is, what can I help you with, or what do you need in this moment?
One of the things that we talk a lot about, and I am completely guilty of this, both sometimes as a therapist and also as a parent, like, I jump to problem solving. We talk a lot about, in DBT, we have this dialectic that we balance of change and acceptance. I am very change heavy, and I know that about myself. And so I’m, like, ready to do the work, jump in and do the problem solving. I have to slow myself down. As a parent, we really have to slow ourselves down. And a lot of us are in roles where we are the problem solver. We are the one that’s really leading the show. And so when we’re engaging with our partners or with our teens, asking them, what do they need in that moment? You can validate their emotion. “I can see that you’re really frustrated based off of this.” And sometimes they’ll be like, “No, I’m sad.” I’m like, “Okay, help me understand what’s going on.” And then you can really kind of dig into a little bit more validation. And one of the really key things with validation is you are demonstrating that you understand them and you see their experience, and in our fast paced world that we live in, most of us don’t feel seen. And in that space validation is actually a really great de-escalation tactic. It takes the temperature down in that moment and can be really helpful to then open the door to other options around, like, what do you think you want to do? Or can I help you come up with some options of how to have this conversation with your friend? And the one big one is lead with validation. When somebody is upset, start there. Address the emotions before you try to even address the problem, which you don’t even know all the details of yet. So sometimes, it’s like delay the problem solving, focus on the validation and understanding the dialectic of the situation. What are all the different perspectives that are coming up? What might you be missing in the data that you’ve taken in through your five senses? And then when they’re ready, let them lead in terms of problem solving and your support. You’re not driving the process.
Cindy Lopez: So much of what you’re saying is like, yes, yes, I should be doing that. So for some of our listeners, this might be the first time you’ve been hearing about DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, just in case we haven’t made that clear. And for others of us are like, yeah, yeah, DBT skills are good. DBT strategies are good. So, do people need specific training to do this? Can they learn it themselves? I know that we have some resources in our show notes for this episode. Talk about that for a minute.
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: I think in a lot of ways, DBT is definitely getting a lot more press recently, I would say. We are the only evidence based treatment for high risk adolescents. And so in terms of mental health, there is a big push in communities to incorporate DBT. And then I just saw an article last week, or there was something, where two really important contributors to DBT, they had developed a book a couple of years ago called DBT for Dummies, which goes back to, I think of like Excel for Dummies. And so to really get it more accessible to people that don’t need the high risk behaviors, cause so many of the skills are applicable to all of us. And in there, like it’s a workbook. It talks about it. There’s also tons of videos on the communication strategies. There’s the DBT program at Rutgers University – has a YouTube channel that has short little clips that we use in our teaching off and on that talk through the skills and like how to do it. And that can be really helpful in terms of getting the skills in like bite sized pieces to then start incorporating them. There’s a lot of different resources, and then a lot of our different podcasts, too, about DBT.
Cindy Lopez: Yeah. And, for our listeners too, we do have, as Jenn already mentioned DBT resources at CHC. We have our RISE IOP Intensive Outpatient Program for teens, Jenn said nine week program for teens who have suicide ideation, self-harming. We also have DBT skills groups for students and also for parents. Is that right?
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: Middle school is a multi-family skills group and then high school is teens only. We have recently incorporated, in the last year based off of a joint study with Stanford and the RISE program, a parent coaching group. And I think that’s something that we can probably see on the horizon in our outpatient.
There are other providers in the area that do it and it is really effective. And there is evidence to suggest that just the parents doing a skills group actually decreases the level of risk in their teens. So the teen doesn’t even have to take a DBT lesson at all and just the parents being skillful really has an impact on their functioning.
Cindy Lopez: That’s great. So we have all those resources at CHC. You can find more about that online. And Jenn, before we wrap up, just want to say thank you again for sharing your expertise and insights with us today. Is there anything that you really want to say to our listeners before we sign off?
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: I think one of the big things–and I keep this in mind as a parent–is it’s okay for me to stop, take a breath, and then move forward in a way that I am a better communicator. I have also kind of addressed my emotions coming into a difficult experience or just I’m anticipating a little tricky conversation with my child or with my partner. And that like 30 second pause sometimes can really influence how skillful we can be. And so as we’re talking about incorporating these skills, it is okay to practice and kind of say it out loud when nobody’s around or kind of test it out. It’s also really important to slow ourselves down and not rush through trying to deescalate the situation and use the skill or get stuck in patterns.
Cindy Lopez: Well, thank you, Jenn, for sharing all that. To our listeners, I hope you’ve taken away some important learnings today. You can find more online, chconline.org. If you’re interested in our RISE IOP program, you can find out more at chconline.org. You could call our care team or email our care team. You can email the care team careteam@chconline.org. You can also call 650-688-3625.
So thank you again, Jenn. Thank you to our listeners.
Jennifer Leydecker, LMFT: Thank you.
Cindy Lopez: Visit us online at podcasts.chconline.org. Make sure to subscribe to Voices of Compassion so you never miss an episode, and we’d love it if you’d leave us a rating and review. Have a question? Send us an email or a voice memo at podcasts@chconline.org. We’re here for you when you need us.
